Bring on the cashless society....

Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by ozcopper, Oct 17, 2019.

  1. Roswell Crash Survivor

    Roswell Crash Survivor Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    As long as one credible currency remains available in note form, no country will remain truly 'cashless'.

    For example, in Sweden, where it's de-facto government policy to reduce cash-per-capita by regularly de-monetizing Krona notes, forcing holders to exchange them in banks (paper trail).

    In the last "cattle round-up", the series of notes that was de-monetized was issued only 7 years ago.

    Swedes who wish to stock fiat cash outside of the banking system can still get Euros, US Dollars and Swiss Francs.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2019
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  2. Jim4silver

    Jim4silver Well-Known Member

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    In a situation where a country goes "cashless", the big deal is not that there won't be "notes" or other items available for people to barter or trade with among each other, it is the fact that cash won't be accepted at businesses and won't be available from banks anymore, etc.

    Right now a person could easily live in the US without a bank account or real "job" if they have the hustle and skills to work for cash on the side and pay all their bills in either cash or money orders that are available at every 7-11 type store for around $1. The Gov doesn't get a penny from these folks in income taxes.

    Once cash is "banned", it will be like trading meth or cocaine to "buy" things. Folks can do that right now of course if they have the meth or cocaine to trade with, but it is not very easy considering the constant risk of arrest and need to find a seller of goods who will accept such as trade, etc.
     
  3. JohnnyBravo300

    JohnnyBravo300 Well-Known Member

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    Tax is theft but thats another topic. I also doubt there are that many high wage earners getting paid under the table to worry about. It's just not that easy to make a good income and not have it reported. That stuff happens more with people that barely make a living wage like illegals.

    I have a different question. Why do they need us to pay taxes when they can create money from thin air?
    Just put all expenditures on the debt and be done with it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
  4. Roswell Crash Survivor

    Roswell Crash Survivor Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Currency serves four functions:
    1. a unit of account
    2. a store of value
    3. it is a medium of exchange
    4. it is a standard of deferred payment
    Not going to pretend using a foreign currency is a seemless perfect substitute, but for a Swede, Euros and Dollars is superior to the Krona in (2) even if it is less useful for (3).

    Private 'hoarding' of US Dollars is de jure contraband in Iran, Cuba and Venuzvela.
    Still, US Dollars are readily accepted by private merchants in Tehran, Havana, and Caracas.
     
  5. Roswell Crash Survivor

    Roswell Crash Survivor Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    That's FDR New Deal economics...also Modern Monetary Theory.

    'Hard Money' advocates usually start bringing up hyperinflation, Weimar wheelbarrows of cash and Zimbabwee billion zim bills at this point.
     
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  6. JohnnyBravo300

    JohnnyBravo300 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I have a 10 trillion bill from zimbabwe. Its worth about a 1/4 oz of silver if you can get that for it haha.
     
  7. Jim4silver

    Jim4silver Well-Known Member

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    The high wage earners, young folks, people with regular jobs who get paychecks, etc, don't need cash and won't care. That is why there will be so little push back by citizens in the US when they do go cashless. I believe they will go cashless right after the next big "crash" type event, which will cause the dollar to tank in value for some reason unknown to me at this point in time.

    But as far as cash businesses, that is how it goes for criminal enterprises and for "off the books" US entrepreneurs.

    Such are drug dealers and stolen goods purveyors, etc, and others are off the books independent persons whose businesses are lawful on their face (not engaged in illegal activities in the business itself), but done with cash so to speak, and not claimed for tax purposes.

    Some people make $ say rehabbing old cars and then re-selling them, or doing straight mechanic work by word of mouth, referrals, etc.

    Or doing home contractor type work (offering the homeowner a discounted price if paid in cash). Lawn care and maintenance is another one. Some ladies will do babysitting/daycare stuff out of their home (unlicensed and under the table).

    Even if these folks above do receive a personal check for their services (because they want to look legitimate to their customers), in the US they can go to the drawer's bank and CASH it right there (depending on how high the check amount is) as long as they have a state issued ID or passport. They can get up to $3000 easy and cashed right on the spot. Some banks will charge a small fee to cash such a check ($10 or so).

    Probably most of these types of folks won't be "millionaires" so to speak, but some can do very well depending on their "business". Since they are functioning as the "owner", they are getting the entire "fee" or payment they receive. And then not having to pay taxes on it.

    The fact is, anyone doing anything "illegal" or under the table (non taxed) that involves payment will mostly use "cash", because it is anonymous and does not have any counter-party risk. Personal checks are cashed into CASH.

    Modern folks can use bitcoin and such, but many people don't want to mess with that. Everyone loves cash, even those who poo poo fiat on PM blogs deep down love CASH.

    There is a giant "underground" in the US that operates in these ways and the Gov knows it, and when the time is right will stop most of it by going cashless. Much of this "underground" is really made up of "everyday" folks so to speak. They just happen to live one click off from "legitimacy" with respect to their business, etc.

    If someone was advocating for the Gov, there is a strong argument for banning cash, simply using the lost taxes argument. Add to that stopping drug money movement and other crime $$$ proceeds done in CASH and it is even stronger.

    The public would probably accept cashless today if there was some bad financial event tied in somehow, unfortunately.

    As far as asking why does the Gov tax us? I think it all stems from the Kings collecting taxes on the peasants in the olden days. That has never gone away with each succeeding generation.

    Certainly the amount of taxes they collect from us today far exceeds anything needed to run the government and perform necessary duties associated with that.

    Instead they use our tax money by squandering it on many unnecessary things here and abroad. Plus adding to the national debt for what is needed beyond what is collected.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
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  8. SilverDJ

    SilverDJ Well-Known Member

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    Tax paid for the infrastructure you used to post this message :rolleyes:
     
  9. 66rounds

    66rounds Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Many people on here advocate for reductions or complete removals of income tax. I myself am an advocate of income tax removal. I believe a flat rate national sales tax (GST) is sufficient. I wonder what everyone's thoughts are regarding tax abolishment and how they believe infrastructure will be funded. Particularly keen to hear from @mmm....shiney!
     
  10. SilverDJ

    SilverDJ Well-Known Member

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    There are many ways to make the tax system work, and that would be one of them, you just have to engineer it right.
     
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  11. JOHNLGALT

    JOHNLGALT Well-Known Member

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    "There are many ways to make the tax system work, you just have to engineer it right."

    "There are many ways to make the tax system work,....you just have to take it from others & give it to us."
    There, fixed it for you.
     
  12. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Im going on holidays Tuesday so I don’t know if I’ll get time for some decent input, but I’d just say that reworking the tax system would probably have little effect for consumers if government didn’t reign in its spending
     
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  13. JohnnyBravo300

    JohnnyBravo300 Well-Known Member

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    They are printing 75 billion a day. Govt spending and tax revenue arent related.
    Thet really dont need a penny from us to do what they are doing.

    If they really cared about a meaningful stimulus wouldnt it make sense for the sheeple to have more $$ to spend. If you think about it, it makes no sense.
    Without sound money paying taxes is meaningless, it's a slave burden.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
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  14. willrocks

    willrocks Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    It'd be interesting to see what income tax actually pays for?

    Schools - School fees
    Hospitals - Medicare @ $1400 per family annually.
    Roads - $0.416 per litre of fuel, council rates (land tax)
    Police Force - $1.1 billion annually from speeding fines.
    Courts - Court fees & penalties
    University - HECS loans
    Defense ?

    It's a ridiculous concept that tax revenue is pooled then divided according to how gov numpties see fit. A user-pays system would be much more efficient, even if the user had to incur a debt with the government.
     
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  15. willrocks

    willrocks Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    More likely tax paid for the infrastructure the gov needed to store this message, and the fact that you visited this message, just in case you're a bad person doing bad things.
     
  16. Ag bullet

    Ag bullet Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the notion of abolishing income tax and a flat rate GST. This would mean you only pay when you consume and it rewards savers.....and for that reason it won't happen. Govt's seem hell bent on getting people to spend to 'stimulate' the economy. Only taxing them when they spend doesn't encourage spending. Another reason for cashless.....negative interest rates. Spend today because it costs less than keeping the money to spend tomorrow. The more one thinks about cashless the more one realises that it strips away ALOT of liberty.
     
  17. Jason1

    Jason1 Active Member

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    I think the gov would like nothing more than a full across the board gst and abolish income tax, one that was the original idea of the Gst but was not passed in that form.
    But also because while allot of people complain about income tax the thing is 50% of taxation is paid by the top 10% of the working age population.
    While pretty much every one pays income tax who works, after all the tax breaks, subsidies and middle class welfare a majority of people really dont pay that much tax after its been claimed back at the end of the financial year.
    so essentially.
    for that reason Im sure a government would love nothing more than to have a high GST and no income tax, people would definitely be paying more tax that way and not get tax returns which would save the gov more money. Plus good way to sting the Poor who pay no income tax what so ever lol.
    But if people arent getting good tax returns they should get a better accountant because most people really dont pay bugger all tax when all is said and done and tax returns are filled. unless your one of the top 10%most of us dont have much to complain about the failure of not having a good accountant is the problem for every one else essentially if they are lower down the chain but paying a tone of income tax.

    Local Business in this country are the ones being screwed the most, they need to make that fairer, they pay a huge amount of tax, and yet those big multinational pricks who trade here pay nothing. thats where we should be focused on reforming tax, we need to tax those guys more and tax the smaller guys less.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
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  18. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    You're definitely right there. To a point.

    Governments issue currencies and then create tax liabilities in order to retain control of the financial system. They don't need us except to vote for them. If we could pay our tax liabilities with other goods then many would eg spud farmers would pay with spuds, prostitutes with wristies, financial planners with financial advice and coal mining companies with coal. But we can't. We're legally required to meet our tax liability in fiat currency so we have to exchange our productive efforts for $$. Or go to jail. In the meantime, governments keeps deficit spending. I think there's a new term for that now too. :p

    Now the problems with governments printing money are firstly that it inflates the price of assets. And by assets I'm referring to non-productive investments like housing and shares as opposed to capital goods, and secondly the extra money in circulation benefits those closest to the printing press. The closer you are to the money supply drip, the better off you are. So those further down the food chin basically have to deal with inflated assets without the benefits of having received the funding boosts. Governments rewards their mates at the expense of their non-mates.

    As far as the best form of taxation goes there's a shedload of alternative systems. I don't know what's best. But progressive tax systems are probably the worst whilst some form of flat rate income tax and a consumption based taxation system is probably the best alternative. I think.
     
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  19. JohnnyBravo300

    JohnnyBravo300 Well-Known Member

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    It's funny how the more people try to explain fiat and taxes the less it makes sense haha.
     
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