2014 Budget

Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by aleks, May 12, 2014.

  1. Nugget

    Nugget New Member Silver Stacker

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    The funny thing about socialism is that at first it's a successful argument "Oh no. We don't want to be like China / North Korea / USSR" but as it gets used more and more people become interested in nailing down exactly what it is and they do their own research and discover that their preconceived idea's about socialism are a result of cold war propaganda. Yes, China, DPRK and USSR weren't / aren't fun places to live. No one would dispute that. That doesn't mean that the polar opposite is awesome either. You joke about speaking your mind and "comrade" Putin. Putin isn't a socialist and speaking your mind isn't exactly OK in the West either (eg pro-Nazi idea's in Germany, "Free Speech" zones in the US)

    It's interesting that you mention the Ukraine and Russia, because to me those appear to have popular support. Democracy, as long as you deliver the result we want :p
     
  2. JulieW

    JulieW Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Takes me rigt back.....

    'Move to Russia if you don't like it here'

    The good old days.
    LOL
     
  3. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    More than half
     
  4. f40

    f40 Member

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    Exactly! So they are not actually the minority.

    It is going to be very hard for any government to wind back all the welfare.
     
  5. JulieW

    JulieW Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    So true.

    A few of you might find this commentator particularly annoying most days ( :D ), but he neatly sums up the issues (even if he is a lackey of the extreme left who uses the ABC as a refuge, playing token Islamic Brotherhood apologist, using tax dollars to attack the way of life here!) :D :D

    As I said, Abbott is incompetent and ideologically driven. If he wasn't he'd have the population on board (as did Howard after his 96 budget).
    Instead he's annoyed everyone except News Ltd , Whitehouse Institute of Design and Malcolm Turnbull!

     
  6. mmm....shiney!

    mmm....shiney! Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I see your point.Instead of saying minorities I should have said low income earning families that have no incentive to earn more because someone else pays for them. Now I don't know if you are a welfare apologist or not f40, but consider the following chart I made using data from that link in a welfare apologist's previous post:

    [​IMG]
     
  7. f40

    f40 Member

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    I absolutely agree with you. But what can be done when the majority support (and receive) the welfare?

    As I said earlier they are the majority and it is going to be very hard for any government to wind back all the 'benefits'. Give someone welfare for long enough and they begin to accept it as the norm.
     
  8. Roswell Crash Survivor

    Roswell Crash Survivor Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Oh really, when was the last time you landed in Changi?

    It ain't a utopia by a long shot, but hardly deserves the vile label you've chosen for the fair city.
     
  9. aleks

    aleks Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Ok I take that back in order to not offened but (barring abject poverty) mindless consumerism in an authoritarian state is my idea of hell.

    Australia ranks first to third on human development, singapore 20 to 25th.


    But we should all just shut up because we don't live in poverty, us peasants shouldn't complain.

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ed-asians-for-perspective-20140522-38qxh.html
     
  10. wrcmad

    wrcmad Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    [​IMG]

     
  11. Ghost Story

    Ghost Story Active Member

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    now I know why I don't drink people get in fights and lose friends :(
     
  12. Nugget

    Nugget New Member Silver Stacker

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    Not written by Dr Kamerschen

    A simplistic analogy that on the surface sounds good but doesn't stand up to real world application.
     
  13. bordsilver

    bordsilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    ^ Because the poorest will get cash and free beer you mean?
     
  14. aleks

    aleks Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...t-architect-tony-shepherd-20140522-38rv2.html

     
  15. wrcmad

    wrcmad Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Oh.?
    I thought this simplistic analogy reflected the phsyc of the previous 11 pages quite fittingly?
    Where does it go wrong?
     
  16. Nugget

    Nugget New Member Silver Stacker

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    I did have a lengthy reply our but meh, Google has all the rebuttals (some are good, some are excellent, others aren't so readable).

    I would like to thank you however for prompting me to chase those rebuttals down. It helped me along my path of understanding politics / economics.



    I do ask though, does the fact that the math in the analogy does not add up (bill $80, total paid $79) or that the analogy is attributed to a Professor whom has repeatedly denied being the author - do not those two facts not bother you?
     
  17. wrcmad

    wrcmad Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Nope.
    The math I attribute to rounding, and a case of KISS.... not bothered.
    I couldn't give a rats who wrote it either.
    The mere fact it prompted someone to think, research, then manage only two irrelevant rebuttals was enough satisfaction for me. :)
     
  18. Nugget

    Nugget New Member Silver Stacker

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    I did have a lengthy rebuttal but you've got your world view and I would have invested a significant amount of energy trying to change that. First and foremost, it's not my place to do so. Secondly, my time and energy are limited and at present the demands on them are such I don't have any spare (trying to learn to garden, pursuing interesting esoteric topics, reading different political philosophies, playing with my dog :p ) . Anyway, these sort of debates are best done with beer in our bellies :p




    If anyone is genuinely interested they'll just use their Google-fu skills and read where the analogy has been debated & IMHO trounced.


    If people aren't interested in reading those debates / analysis because the analogy reflects their world view? Meh - I'm cool with that.
     
  19. bordsilver

    bordsilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Let's cut through the crap. The biggest flaw in the beer example is that in reality there are likely to be even more people who get free beer than implied. Beer is obviously an analogy for "manna from Government" or "Government services" whereby you receive things paid for by others.

    Taking the latest ABS detailed tables on the whole range of personal incomes, taxes, welfare payments as well as the use of Government services (ie subsidised schooling and health etc), the overwhelming number of people do not pay for their beer at all.

    [​IMG]

    Just focussing on personal income taxes, then forty per cent of households receive more in cash welfare payments than they pay in tax. According to the Treasury, the top 2.3% of income earners (those above $180,000) paid 24% of all income taxes.

    When you add in all of the beer (free/subsidised services) households receive then in fact it is only the highest income quintile households that pay more in tax than the beer they drink.

    According to Creighton, even if you factor in payment of "regressive" taxes such as the GST and tobacco and alcohol excise it doesn't change the overall picture. Intermittently the ABS takes estimated consumption patterns and then works out the burden of these "taxes on production" across households.

    In the financial year ending June 2010, their estimates of these "total average tax rates" (ie including indirect and direct taxes and net of social security in cash and kind) ranged from -64 per cent for the bottom quintile, to -22 per cent for median households and 13 per cent for the top quintile.

    Put simply, only the top fifth of households paid any tax. The bottom 6.9 million households, while often incurring income tax liabilities and regularly paying GST, received more in cash welfare and services than they paid in.

    PS My Google-fu just led me to a bunch of socialists ranting about "beer" being total income (or something) or some generic hate speech. Did you find a real argument worth repeating?
     
  20. bordsilver

    bordsilver Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    The $79 vs $80 thing was introduced after studying Labornomics whereby tax cuts are paid for by new taxes that raise less than the cuts :p
     

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