Saw this on my Ebay completed listings for the 2010 Panda graded MS70 by PCGS and NGC. Jan 21 PCGS MS70 $153.92 Jan 22 NGC MS70 $172.49 Jan 23 NGC MS70 $200.00 An interesting sequence in light of the "normal" $120/$130 prices. An aberration with a small sample size? Couldn't tell if it was the same buyer. One was private listing. one was best offer and the 3rd was open.
In China, MS70 2011s are advertised at $158... so I figure that $150-$200 for a MS70 2010 Panda isn't too far off the mark.
I got one for 140-150 about 2 weeks ago. They were selling all for around that the week prior to this. I think its cause the 2011 ms-70 are really hot right now. They were ending around 100 before~. Now I see them 110+ before auction even ends. I guess this is driving up the price of the 2010. Also note last week a say an MS-70 2010 for for 80 bucks!!! ngc too.
What is the status of graded pandas in China? Thought the grading thing was primarily a US affliction. Is it spreading?
It's a love-hate relationship... It makes no sense to send a Chinese coin to an American company for grading... BUT... It does make a lot of cents to send a Chinese coin to an American company for grading. OMP is still in fashion, but NGC is very well respected too. It will be interesting to see how things develop in the future. I suppose when more coins are graded, then OMP will become more desirable. There is little disputing, slabbing a coin makes $$$.
I personally loved slabbed coins. I just prefer them in that nice case. IMO, the reason I prefer slabbed over OMP is because they don't organize as nicely. NGC cases you can stack them which is neat. I'm kinda scared a bit to touch coins in OMP or in cases worry I might damage them in some way. I get the feeling of security in graded coins.
Absolutely agree. Then there is the oxidation protection. And then there is the guarantee upon resale (if ever). And then there is the clean up with conservation. And then...
^ haha word! yeah i think the guarantee is a big thing especially with chinese coins. You know chinese are notorious for counterfeits. I can see many americans being skeptical about buying chinese coins. Hopefully when they see slabbed coins it will make them start chinese coins are really nice and collectable. would love to hear the argument for OMP.
I'm going to take the liberty of answering for them . Mostly they say that OMP is how the coin was intended from the mint. It's the true representation of the culture or whatever. That and it's prettier (in their opinion).
In some ways I like the omp packaging espescially if it comes in a box as well, to me it is kind of like getting a old colt single action pistol still with all the original packaging, plus you can still get good deals on high quality coins if you can look at them first, where as graded coins are always expensive and in my opinion why bother paying that much for a graded coin since it probably wont make much money and many times lose you money when you buy during the frenzy like early last year alot of people saw their panda investments go downhill from what they paid. On the other hand espescially with chinese coins you do have the satisfaction of knowing it is a genuine coin(except in some cases where they are counterfitting the slabs as well, which I imagine we will see more in the future and some people may not want to have anything to do with chinese coins). Plus generally you know what condition the coin is in unless the grader made a mistake which certainly happens. And like Tamo mentioned graded coins tend to stay shiney and less chance of oxidation and are easier to describe and assure your customers when reselling. I am sure there are many opinions and this subject has probably been beaten to death. Personally I will buy mostly in OMP and then send them to be graded and even conserved . They only problem is it is getting harder to find OMP coins that someone has not looked at closeley and not sent to be graded because they look to be in poor condition the other problem is it is getting so expensive to grade them espescially if they are to be conserved as well. At NGC You are looking at membership fee plus $26.50 per coin for grading and conservation plus another $12 if it is a variety, plus $8.00 handleing fee plus registered insured shipping to NGC and back so if you are sending a small amount it could cost around $40-$45 buck per coin which just is not worth it on a coin that you paid $80 for and you would be lucky to get a ms 68 or 69 which you could maybe sell for $110-$125 is it really worth it , just something you have to ask yourself, for me I still dont have the answer .
For some reason I picked up 7 PCGS MS70 Pandas in Apr 2010 and have been periodically watching the sold prices on Ebay and the 3 sales listed above seemed to be a noticeable increase over the prior sales of around $120/$130. Not that I'm complaining of course. I was not aware the Chinese were buying slabbed coins.
Do you folks think people prefer NGC or pcgs grading with pandas? I know with the lunar coins people seem to prefer ngc maybe because there are more available to make sets. This has probably been discussed here already but I am just curious I have not been collecting pandas very long.
This is a long-standing debate. Basically it comes down to personal preference. For me, NGC look better and have better air protection.
Both PCGS and NGC are opening offices in Asia/China. Should spur greater interest/acceptance in the region.
Yep, NGC has an office in GuangDong. Even though BeiJing and ShangHai have the largest coin markets, GuangDong has a pretty big coin following too. Interesting location for NGC to setup... It may have made my life easier if they were in ShangHai.
Yep, Pandas seem to be fairly price stable, especially during this recent dip in silver (as well as the dip last year too). Yep, a lot of vendors seem to be getting into slabbed coins. A slab makes $$$ ... especially if you get an MS70... permission to do what the Federal Reserve does... Print Money.
Slabbed graded coins are OK but they're by no means the be all and end all. They certainly stack prettier, I'll give em that. NGC hold a total monopoly over graded MCCs. They 'control' the number of grades given, I'm sorry that's just the way it is. I've read a number of posts of people disappointed with the grade received on a seemingly flawless coin. If you're comfortable with all that then happy days. Mint sealed OMP coins means exactly that, they're SEALED. Not sure the Chinese would appreciate the connotations there. What about the thousands of MCC coins graded but not conserved by NCS? If they are conserved why on earth are the slabs not designated so? What it's got a 3 at the start so it's conserved is it? Please. We all know that coins can develop problems after slabbing, so what then? I understand that spots DO indeed affect the grade, correct me if I'm wrong. There was a seller trying to offload a '96 proof 1oz Ag Panda graded MS69UC for months that was spotted. Unsure if it sold or he got sick of trying. Does NGC buy the coin back at market value or do you on sell without disclosure... what's the procedure? Hassle. Yes I buy NGC slabs for the market they are in and I get that there needs to be a grading system, however not every coin that comes from the Chinese mint will be sent to NGC. I see no problem in viewing a flawless coin and buying or having good quality high definition photos to gauge off. In the end it's semantics, OMP is another market, that's all. I simply don't understand the all or nothing faith in NGC.
Unfortunately, I've heard many reports of white spots developing in OMP coins. To be fair, I've also heard reports of white spots developing in graded coins. The only type I have not heard reports of white spots developing is in graded coins that have also been conserved.
Both are great ways to collect, and as disclosure, I do keep a full set of 1oz BU Pandas in OMP, but I have far more coins in NCS/NGC slabs. With the current conservation technology alone, I think it is foolish not to slab a coin worth more than $100. I have had quite valuable coins in OMP that developed white spots on mirror fields, fortunately NCS removed any issues, but if they were left there for 20-30 years (most peoples buy and hold timeframe for these coins) I do not like to think about the lasting issues that would have developed by then. OMP would be far and away the best packaging for the coins, if mints were clean and the packaging lasted forever. Contrary to popular belief, mint employees do not handle every piece of equipment with cotton gloves, and presses do not run from love generated by butterflies and unicorns. Mints are run by people and big industrial machinery covered in grease and oil. Often this residue makes its way onto the surface of a coin, and is left there for 30 years to fester and react with the silver. Also, the PVC packaging used for the double sealing process is by no means stable. most of my pre-2000 packaging is starting to become a smelly tacky mess. It may not hurt the coin, but it will not last forever before it cracks, crumbles or melts away. One thing to keep in mind is not to fall into the "grading trap" don't spend $200 on a coin because there is a 0.05% chance of it coming back as a MS-70 worth $1500. Keep in mind that unless you are buying a sealed monster box, many eyes have been over your coins, selecting the choice pieces and leaving the rest. By the same token, just because it comes back MS-67 do not automatically crack it out, put it in a capsule and flog it on eBay. It is a possibility that your MS-67 will be a shining example compared to OMP coins in 20 years. As 25Grizzlies mentioned, this polarizing debate is all semantics. There is a clear distinction between the OMP and slabbed markets. They each have their own swings, their own premiums and I think it will be that way for a very very long time. Make your own decision about which way to go, and hopefully both storage formats outperform competing investments.
