I am new here so if this topic had been discussed before, sorry about that... Anyway, every now and then there will be one that surface, mostly in china auction site, do anyone here know what this is about? http://www.ebay.com/itm/1992P-CHINA...World_Coins&hash=item3376c26fe5#ht_500wt_1176
This is a German dealer special - who took a bunch of 1992 proofs, and engraved these. There are two versions of these (big and small torch), and thought to be about 1000 of these were done. Some people & grading company consider these as "damaged", since the engraving was not official. On the other hand, some people love to have these part of the collection. It's your choice. Even with this conflicting opinion, these tend to sell well above regular 1992 proofs. This also means the actual mintage of 1992 proof (non torch marked) got reduced by at least 1000.
PCGS is now recognizing these torch privy coins. This may mean two things: 1. PCGS is getting ahead of them and without properly verifying legitimacy, and in a mad race to beat NGC this happened 2. The information about German dealer was a conspiracy theory, and the torch privy coins just became super expensive and rare
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1992-P-C...0343442?pt=US_World_Coins&hash=item25723c4912 London Coin Company has more info in his listing, he is reputable seller and these seem to be official Chinese mint products (does not seem to have official confirmation but it's said that a few employees at Shanghai confirmed they did it) for those who can read Chinese, more info available on q.hexun.com/silverpanda/discussion.aspx?aid=1044571
After my book was published I was able to confirm, to my own satisfaction, that the Torch coins were altered in Germany after they left the China Mint. The second edition of the Gold and Silver Panda Coin Buyer's Guide will have this additional information in it. FWIW, I believe the Torch was added by a third party after the coins left the China Mint. They are still widely collected, and valuable, but the Torch version isn't a 100% China Mint product. Best wishes, Peter Anthony China Pricepedia http://www.pandacollector.com
Interesting, Peter why would a company like PCGS grade the coin and add that variety to there label.......... if it was an "aftermarket" add on kind of like the 2000 gilded panda,s that everyone feels where created in Germany? Any Ideas? , another perplexing point of discussion is ,you rarely see this coin for sale but when you do and I believe there is one or two for sale now,they are more often then not for sale by one of the big Shanghai dealers, that would mean the coin would have to have left China made it,s way to Germany and then made it,s way back to Shanghai,certainly not impossible but the question is ,is it probable? and lastly do you think NGC will grade the coin with that designation? thanks Joe
There is a coin event in Hong Kong scheduled for the end of November. It is planned that the book will be released there. Best wishes, Peter Anthony China Pricepedia http://www.pandacollector.com
While the underlying coin is real, the next edition of the Gold and Silver Panda Coin Buyer's Guide will have a note in it that the torch is a third party addition. I will be surprised if NGC ever grades this coin, and I think PCGS may reconsider how they treat it. There is a major channel for the transfer of Chinese coins from Germany to China. What is sold in Germany one week is frequently for sale in Shanghai the next. Best wishes, Peter Anthony China Pricepedia http://www.pandacollector.com
good to know thanks Peter.... I appreciate it ,when you say NGC will not grade this coin ,do you mean the variety or the coin itself? thanks....... would you share an estimated value in comparison to the regular proof coin ? thanks look forward to the new edition, mine is pretty wore out
In the US, the Torch version sells for maybe 20% more than an OMP coin. If a regular OMP proof brings $230-$250 than the Torch would be closer to $300. In China a Torch fetched $400 at auction in May. Best wishes, Peter Anthony China Pricepedia http://www.pandacollector.com
ThanKs so much Peter................. I would be a buyer of every one I could get at $300 ,I have saw one offered recently ungraded at 599.00 that had problems ,and both the big Shanghai guys are north of $1000.00 , if you see any at that 300 level that are good quality buy them, you have a customer
Thanks; I think this explains why whenever I view a German coin seller on eBay they always seem to have a few gilded Pandas for sale, e.g. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-Yuan-C...51700?pt=Münzen_Medaillen&hash=item4843bf3cb4 A 2010 coin with added bling. Will these ever be graded? or is it just worth it's weight in Silver?
I agree with you on this as well Peter. I doubt NGC will grade this coin and also feel PCGS will not continue to grade it. For example: I'm sure that we have all seen the "colored" versions of BU Silver Panda coins that were colored by a third party (likely in Germany). I'm not referring to the colored proofs minted in 1997, 1998 & 1999 but those BU pandas typically of the years from 2000 thru 2011 that were colored. While the underlying coin is authentic, the color was not done by the Chinese mint and therefore NGC & PCGS have refused to grade/encapsulate these colored panda versions. In my embryonic days of collecting I did purchase a few of these colored pandas just as a collector novelty. Then once I begin grading coins I submitted these colored pandas to NGC in which they were returned ungraded. I then sent them to PCGS with the same results. PCGS did slip up and inadvertently graded two 2006 S10Y Colored Pandas but did so by mistake. I actually own one of these two PCGS graded coins (it's in the panda photo section page #2) and although it makes a good conversation piece, it's probably worth no more than spot. I questioned PCGS why they graded this particular coin and not the others I submitted and they admitted it was done by mistake. This may also be the case with this "torch privy" panda ... I guess the bottom line is the same as in all other cases regarding collectibles if you are a collector then there is no right or wrong and you should enjoy this "torch privy" coin as being unique. If you are an investor approaching it from an investment standpoint then I would not be very optimistic. But then again it's only one coin so buy it, enjoy it, revel in it, cherish it and hopefully one day make a bundle on it !
Just because a coin doesn't make the grade, so to speak, doesn't mean you can't collect it. A good example is older chopmarked coins. These coins are historically important, as well as interesting. None of the chopmarks are Mint "original" but they can tell us something about commerce in China long ago. They have value as Collectibles, and can be fairly expensive, too. Another example is tokens. I doubt that NGC or PCGS would grade a privately issued Chinese token, yet I know of one rare token that auctioned for thousands of Dollars. So don't reject a coin only because it can't be stabbed; know what you are buying, and enjoy it for what it is. Best wishes, Peter Anthony China Pricepedia www.pandacollector.com
THANKS Peter, that is how I like to think about it,I like the whole mystery/intrigue behind the torch ,there is even supposed to be a big torch /little torch .......... for sure there aren't too many around and rarity is always fun................... I own a pretty nice example that I obtained a while back and i am tickled pink I have one that's what collecting is all about for me ,when the topic came up ,i hadn't looked at the coin for a while ,so it made me smile to pull it out and look at it with my daughter..........
