As many of you know I am active on a number of forums and at thesilverforum one of the things I have been doing for members is consolidating coins and medals that members want to grade with NGC and then sending them over in a larger submission. It has been very interesting to see the choices of members there about what to grade. Grading is not a cheap thing - particularly at the crazy exchange rates we are getting in the UK however the number of coins/medals that members are choosing to grade has grown and one can see a pattern. I am interested in whether any of you guys choose to grade and what you tend to think is worth grading. This video shows 5 unboxings of member submissions from thesilverforum and includes: Nanjing Panda 2015 4th Panda Expo medals China Fiat Lunar Rooster Great Britain - Queens Beast gold bu and proof silver China Fiat Gold Pandas Birth of Prince George Crown Britannia Proofs [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoAtoeKKhkM[/youtube]
Not interested in grading any coins and not interested in buying graded coins either. Don't own any and in my local coin club none of the other members have any interest in them either. Generally most coin collecters can grade for themselves and third party graders are mainly for people who don't know much about coins but want to invest in them anyway. I am just too cheap to pay for the service and don't trust the postal service not to lose my coins.
In some countries they prefer slabbed coins and medals, in some countries the opposite. Depends what you plan to do with your collection. Or how much stuff means to you. So to grading I would send either something that I really like, I'm not sure if it's genuine or I think it will help subject to appreciate in value. As I rarely sell something I mainly send coins and medals to grading for better protection (from natural elements as well as physical protection), if it helps. I wouldn't buy expensive coin or medal from unknown person if it's not graded. Slabs can be faked, but I think chances are lower. I rarely buy stuff from people I haven't dealt with before. From metal side of view, I would send either gold or silver. Brass or copper only if it's more valuable, or it's questionable if it's genuine. Subscription to TPG makes sense if you send at least few coins and medals for grading. I wouldn't send stuff below 100$ or so. As I said, depends what you plan to do with your stuff.
"In some countries they prefer slabbed coins and medals, in some countries the opposite." The truth hurts most but except of the US, nobody likes or needs graded stuff. For me its stupid nonsense to collect holders just because some bloke signed them. Maybe someone could explain me this? I need another authenticatonsticker on an authenticated coin? http://www.caccoin.com
Professional TPG (Third Party Grading) definitely is a worthwhile service in many instances. Most people think they know how to grade and authenticate questionable coins, but the vast majority are fooling themselves because they don't.....and certainly not objectively. If you are a buyer, and you are looking to pay the least for the highest condition coin, you are going to do everything you can to find the slightest imperfection. If you are the seller, you will likely think most buyers are unreasonable in their nit-picking evaluations and unreasonable expectations. A coin or medal that has been evaluated and slabbed by a professional, reputable TPG more or less resolves that dilemma between such a buyer and seller. Now, for many transactions, the buyer and seller don't care about the condition of the coin so of course there may not be a reasonable need for a TPG to evaluate those coins....but that's not what TPGing is for. That's not to say that all coins purchased need to be TPGed....it actually depends on what you will do with the coin after you buy it. If you are going to buy a bullion silver coin (a 2017 PM Rooster for argument sake), throw it into a wood box with no protection of the coin except a coin capsule, and store it long term because someone has convinced you that during a SHTF scenario that people will be fighting to the death to give you their first born child to own your bullion ounce of silver, then not only are you fooling yourself big time, but of course there'd be no need to TPG such a coin. But if you are looking to flip coins in the U.S., then TPGed coins can be the best way to go.....depending on several factors (including which TPG you choose). I have purchased quite a few TPGed coins and medals over the years. I have sent in quite a few coins and medals for authentication and grading, my first being a rare 1980's Chinese medal. I can not over emphasize the authentication aspect....and this is what many people who decry TPGing fail to realize - that this is an invaluable service by TPG's. These days I send in quite a few coins and medals for authentication and grading. Many times, the authentication is not important because I am convinced beyond a doubt that the coin or medal is authentic...but with some, the authentication can be as important as the grade.....depending on what it is that I am seeking to have evaluated professionally and independently. P.S. Though I am a big fan of TPGed coins and medals, I have routinely criticized TPG's for what I see as gimmicks such as faux signature labels, and labels that state "Early Strike" and other such deceptive practices. But there are other threads here in the forum where my criticisms can be read....I don't want this thread to go off into a tangent with my specific criticisms. .
I would say you are generalising a little bit too much. It's true that amount of coins that were graded by e.g. NGC for US customers it's far bigger than of any other countries, but I don't think people don't do it because they don't like it, but because in some cases they are not aware that it's not so inconvenient if you live outside USA. Actually service provided by NGC Europe is much better than service done by NGC HQ (NGC EU doesn't grade and slab coins only send them to USA). Different tastes and opinions of course. Some people collect old bars, I don't like bars much, but I don't bother. I agree with you that oversize holders might be impractical for storage, especially if you have a lot of them. On the other hand it can be quite an interesting feeling to hold a big slab with coin or medal in your hand. Some original mint capsules are quite shit. With holder you get at least a feeling that coin or medal is better protected. It's also true that services done by TPG could be improved, that some people sent stuff for re-grading and they get better score, stuff with labels is getting out of the hand, etc. Everything has advantages and disadvantages. Might be that things will be different with when TPG company is "fully" present in Europe. EDIT: After I posted my post I noticed that mmissinglink mentioned some similar problems of TPG than I did.
yes that are the points why i dont like gradeing. If one is not happy with a gradeing one can send the coins again in for a little fee and they look on it again. How can that even be possible? Dont they work properly from the beginning? Furthermore i am the same oppinion as you all that this labels and colour collecting is getting out of hand. I want to collect coins and not slabcolours or some coloured critters on a label. Whats also a very heavy negative point is thats its a father and son business. Moderncoinmart and NGC belong together. I see a lot of conflicts in that setting.0
The re-grading issue sounds fairly common, I think that when computers do the grading it will be a lot less subjective and no need to regrade, at least not with the same company. As it is, I know most people who see a slab start looking for reasons to prove that the grading company has made a mistake, particularly if a milkspot has developed on the coin after it has been graded. With slabs being cracked and the coins regraded I don't even trust the data on the populations any more, probably not far out for common coins but for coins that have had fewer gradings you have to wonder how many have been resubmitted multiple times to get a higher grade. It is generally thought that if you are spending $$$ on a single coin then you must be knowledgeable and experienced, generally if you have seen and own a lot of the coins in your field you will have no trouble spotting a fake, in Australia we have a grading system that is not so precise as the MS70 system, we can have fairly big gaps between the levels of grading so coins generally fit better into one grade than another. In general I would say that slabs are considered to be for inexperienced investors who haven't seen enough genuine coins to be confident that they aren't buying a fake and who don't know the grading system well enough grade their own coins, the sort of people who pull out the coin catalogue and insist that the price in the book is what they should be able to sell their coin to a dealer for. We had a load of slabbed 1 and 2 cent coins offered for sale at our coin club, someone had split some mint sets up for the higher denomination coins and was trying to sell on the lower denominations. The coins were very high grade and looked nice and were being sold at a slight loss of $30 each just to recover the cost of grading. However the club members thought that $30 for a $5-$10 coin was too much so none of them got sold. Numismatists think that they can authenticate and grade their own coins and most of the coins are not being flipped, they are being added to ongoing collections. People wanting to get into the coin 'investment' field are not interested in putting in the time to learn to grade coins, they just want to buy a coin cheap, get it graded and slabbed and then sell it for $$$. These sorts of people help to keep the prices high and are the first to complain when they don't get the value they want when they go to flip the coins. I am sure many people enjoy collecting slabbed coins and are perfectly able to grade and authenticate their own coins, however my experience in Australia is that I have only come across one shop (in Sydney) that had a large stock (exclusively) of slabs. None of the other shops or markets in my area stock them or send their own coins off for grading. I do see them at the big ANDA shows though.
It's possible because it's extremely simple and easy to re-evaluate a coin. That doesn't mean that the coin will get a different or better grade. I think in most cases, holdered (slabbed) coins resubmitted get the same grade. Grading is not a science per se. There has been plenty of discussions in other forums regarding standardizing grading to virtually rule out subjectivism....and the issue of machine or computer grading has even been brought up. Like anything else worthwhile, professional grading will evolve and improve. .
I think there are certain things that are worth slabbing, and some that are better left raw. As a true American (I hear it's catching on in the UK, too ), I've got a mix of both, LOL. And I suppose I have my reasons for both, as well. And is the question what do we send in -- or what do we buy as already-slabbed? While I'm comfortable to send in very modern Chinese medals, and perhaps some modern coins of which I believe I'm the original owner... I'm way too chicken to purchase & submit the raw oldies. Let somebody else take the risk (and the potential reward) with those, which I certainly appreciate -- just as I'm sure some future collector generations down the road will appreciate what I've done with some modern submissions. I will happily (stupidly?) pay up a bit extra for "pre-slabbed" with certain things. Besides, after 30+ years of each of the two major TPG's having been pretty busy all this time, quite a few of the old pieces that I'm interested in have already been slabbed, perhaps rightfully so. Modern or old. Circulated or uncirculated. Ag, brass, copper. All good in my book. And if a picture is worth a thousand words, then here's several thousand...
I thought Numistacker brought up something interesting in one of his recent videos (Part 1 of the NGC unboxing, around the 10:45 mark)... And that's intentionally buying something that falls under the category of a non-numerical grade. Not going to lie: I'm a numerical-grade "snob." Though that certainly doesn't mean all my stuff needs to be high grades, per se. Heck, I've got as low as a VG 8 & VG 10, purchased like that as already-slabbed. Aside from being cool-looking specimens, IMO, one good reason is that they top out in the mid-AU's, which go for ridiculous prices way out of my budget -- if you can even find them available, that is. But it does mean, however, that I much prefer something with a numerical grade over a Details or even Genuine, any day. There is one exception of mine. And my reasoning is sort of similar to Numistacker's, that it's a "special case." In my instance, it's the fact that it's a piece of American (and even world) history -- and that it had sat on the ocean floor for something like 210 years. There ain't gonna be no numerical grades with this particular lot. :lol: Given this type of stuff, I'm perfectly fine with a Genuine label, and am always open to others in a similar vein on a case-by-case basis. Anyway, I think it's a pretty interesting story behind them. Stock photo, but it's a reasonable comparison to mine in terms of everything...
Would be super cool to own some coins from a shipwreck. Computerized grading would probably be better, but it doesn't necessarily means perfect. As most of the software is still written by humans it means it's not error prone. Some "errors" might be intentional. Some ex coworker who worked in a company that was developing software for betting games said that numbers were not completely "random". Grading might be also useful for less experienced collectors for learning. I check coin or medal with 5x magnifying glass if I send it to grading and try to asses maximum grade it can receive. Sure I could do this also with asking some experienced collector. Honestly I do hope that some TPG companies will improve their customer support and focus less on new labels, but more on improving slabs, grading itself and their census.
Not to side-track this thread too much, but there's quite a few out there from a number of shipwrecks. Heck, there was something like an estimated 450K coins aboard the El Cazador. And stuff like what I posted above is certainly affordable & available to anybody here who's looking for something similar. Obviously not all shipwreck coins are created equally. There are some really junky-looking ones, and there are some in way better shape. The dealer I got mine from had a bunch of the El Cazador's in different "grades" of Genuine, and were priced accordingly. I chose from one of the upper tiers. Really cool & really nice, in-hand -- better than I was expecting. Looking back, I sort of wish I had spent a little extra & got the next highest "grade," which was the best available, since I like it so much. But he sold out of them long ago. Still happy with what I have, though. Anyway, as much as I like all the different collector categories out there, for all kinds of unique reasons, there's nothing quite like the slabbed oldies. On some levels, nothing else can compare. League of their own, in a way.
