Greetings Having experienced fake bars recently, I thought it was time for a thread that highlights eBay fraudsters, so here is the first entry. Yes I know buyer beware, and dont use eBay for PMs, still some will so this is to at least warn others on the forums to avoid these particular sellers. The sellers listings ... while the seller has an account anyway. I don't expect it will last much longer. http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/theironbank/m.html Initially I was giving this seller the benefit of the doubt ... until today he posted 2 new listings, and a 3rd one perhaps today or a few days ago, the most recent being 10x PAMP fortuna 1oz silver bars ... just like the fakes I brought from him. If nothing else you have to admire the balls to post up an identical listing while currently in dispute on identical bars. Rather than post these back I will instead, hand them into the police in the next few days and let them 'deliver' them. If you have an eBay / Gumtree / and similar seller that is selling fakes, list them here, and inform the police as well as the sites (eBay in this example) of those sellers actions. We as a community need to get all fakes / imitations / replicas out of circulation, and shut down those that are selling them. Cheers - Silver Knight Adendum: Add in a 4th listing while I was writing this, the German Silver entry
Problem with feedback on eBay is once you have posted one you cant later revise it if a problem is later discovered. Asking those better versed in silver than me. Initially the copper serial, then asking a forum member at a meet, asking PAMP to review some images of one of the bars, and finally a XRF test.
Yes, the copper-coloured serial numbers on all his listings are "dodgy-as" What did the XRF test say?
The German silver bars look dodgy. "German silver" being another name for fake silver so you really need to question the authenticity of the other listings. Also the way he has worded his listings sets alarm bells ringing that something is not quite right with the bars he is selling. Gut feeling would tell me stay away.
Bummer to hear that. Advice is you should always have Neodymium magnets on hand. I only buy PMs from here or from GS but whenever I buy them off here the first thing I do when I get them is test them with a magnet. It only takes a second. This would have stopped you leaving that positive feed back. Neodymium magnets http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Lot-100-...359732?hash=item1e987d2ef4:g:TsEAAOSw2s1U08tZ
Have several, thing is Copper has a similar, but slightly weaker, diamagnetic effect, so in this case not definitive. Still thanks for the advice, I did test them and they 'seemed' ok at the time.
Welllllll, it will come as no surprise to anyone - 3.13% silver and 96.87% Copper. I do have the raw video on youtube (unlisted), but it has information that should not be made public. I can make an edited version if you like.
SilverKnight, as soon as this thread started I sent the Ebay fake seller a simple question about the 10x PAMP fortuna 1oz silver bars he has for sale, the same ones he sold fake to you. I simply asked "Are these fakes?". That's all. I just got his reply - "I don't believe so? Be a lot of effort to go into faking something of this small nature wouldn't it? I've got some gold i bought from PAMP and perth mint and the packages are identical to this silver. However i bought it from another user on ebay not direct from the mint like my gold" http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/10x-1-Oz...202082?hash=item23626d8d22:g:Ow8AAOSwaA5Wk2Qa hmmm........
Fishtaco,s poor mans "slide" for pm,s less than $10 worth of rare earth magnets from china covered in a strip cut from a magnetic real estate calendar, works a treat!
I actually brought this seller up on a thread in nov/dec for selling 1oz scottsdales with pics of a big wooden box full of 10oz bars. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1-Oz-Sco...a=true&si=hTXb8slMrlZBazqLNb7aaXstdhA%3D&orig I wonder if all the perth mint gold certicards sold by this seller were fake? you would have to presume yes even though they may well be legit. I stopped buying 1oz minted silver bars quite a while ago after seeing just how many fakes were being sold,dont think I will ever buy another 1oz minted bar, the ones I already have are destined to the future melting pot apart from 3 vintage Englehards. Other than around 6g,s gold purchased from trusted members here my other small amounts of gold have been purchased from either PM or PB. The problem with fake pm,s is once discovered the buyer is usually faced with only 2 choices, accept total loss or pass on to the next unsuspecting buyer! Why are governments allowing all these fakes to be made and exported with only the final opportunistic scum re-seller being branded a criminal?
The disclaimer after the copy pasted item description of the sold Perth Mint Gold certicards says it all. and gives an outer if selling fake gold certicards. "All come with a Certicard and are unopened and have been untouched since I have purchased the items a while ago online. I have not drill tested these items or chemical tested them for authenticity, all have been left untouched in original packaging. Returns Not accepted if you simply change your mind, will allow up to two weeks if the item is unopened/untouched if you pay for the postage to be refunded back to me" This part below says there must be some reservation or knowledge by seller or why else would you return an item if not change of mind? Not real gold perhaps? "Returns Not accepted if you simply change your mind, will allow up to two weeks if the item is UNOPENED/UNTOUCHED if you pay for the postage to be refunded back to me"
I'm getting a few queries of 'How do I know'? The process I went through 1. Look at them. To me they looked ok at first glance, packaging seemed good, a protective plastic film, on some was peeling off, fairly normal I thought. Many items come with protective films, typically electronic screens, but on a PM capsule it reduces scratching. 2. Diamagnetic test. Basically using a neodymium magnet near the surface of the silver. In this case directly on the capsule. The fakes are copper cored so there is still a diamagnetic effect, so the bars 'passed' this. Real silver has a slightly stronger effect than copper. 3. Closer look. Those copper colored serial numbers look a bit suspicious, so sent an email to PAMP with some photos of one of the bars, they reply with 'that is not in keeping with how they should look' 4. Experienced opinion. I went to a meet took some of the bars for other forum members to give a verdict. Proclaimed fake almost before I let go from passing it to someone. 5. XRF test. Organised with one of the members to have an XRF test of the bar, slightly edited vid here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EamBqFCZeOc 6. Just finished doing a specific gravity test on one of the 'PAMP' bars, as well as 3 other bullions a 1oz silver skull (for an odd shape test), 1oz Morgan silver bar (as close match in bar type to the 'PAMP') and a 1oz copper round (to show what a 999 copper sg is). Raw video here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iUpt8wf97g <-- be a while before youtube finishes uploading and processing. So that's how I know they are fake, a progression of asking others who know more than me and various tests.
Actually quite clever, I only have a few button magnets, and one from a Hard Drive. The HD one seems to work well. I need to make a proper slide I think so i get consistent results. Short answer. Fiat talks. So he has a track record of perhaps selling fakes, these of course might have been real, *but* recent action show even if he knew they were fake, he does not care and will try to sell them on for profit.
I know of someone that has purchased two 1oz gold bars from eBay both from sellers with 100% feedback selling the same thing. 1 x certicard Pamp with matching serial number, 1 x certicard Perth Mint with matching serial. Bars look good, until you compare to original. You can see the bars are visibly thicker than the original. eBay didn't seem to concerned, we believe the sellers are the same sellers as they are using the same packaging material (padded bags) and were folded the same way. I'll post in the next few days with originals and the fakes, and how you can tell. To be honest, I really wonder how much fraud goes on... on eBay daily. If I was a first time investor and found this out later down the track it'd certainly put me off investing in precious metals. I'll post their usernames tomorrow also when I have further information Thanks SBC
These certicards makes it harder to tell what is real or not. The fake certicards looks very professional. I bought a few PM items on eBay before I found Silver Stackers and got a fake silver pamp. I uploaded a picture in another thread. In my case the seller has agreed to refund. Luckily my more expensive Perth 5g gold certicards were real. I found pure gold easier to verify. I worn a 24k ring most of my life so it was visually correct, but to confirm I cut the bar in half, acid tested and melted it and retested. But how many people would do that?
I don't understand why people buy some of the certicards from eBay when the dealers sell them cheaper? Any idea. Or even 1kg silver bars and so on. Is it that they don't know about the dealers or is it something else?
I believe its because they dont actually know legitimate dealers sell and post pm,s direct especially small amounts online. I had no idea there were local pm dealers in my area and online dealers until I bought my first ever 999 silver coin on ebay and then found this forum. I had no interest in pm,s until I started watching SHTF vids on youtube on my quest for 911 truth lol but this forum introduced me to pm,s and the best place for me to purchase them firstly through the introduction stickies then direct member knowledge. I still buy harder to get coins I want on ebay but usually through dealers, but the ebay game for pm flippers works so well on the unsuspecting that they dare not disclose the truth publicly else loose profit! Data mining sends many people to silver and gold products on ebay when they had no intention of looking to buy pm,s all they did was type eagle,koala,kangaroo,crocodile or any other object in a description and then they are forever tempted with a silver koala coins when all they wanted was a koala knitting paten,that silver koala coin becomes a much easier and cheaper option than knitting a relative the koala jumper. Then they get caught in the flipper trap, first they see a highly inflated buy it now, then a couple of lines down a cheaper but still highly inflated buy it now identical item from the same seller and believe this one to be a bargain so buy it at what to us is a silly price! If people believe they are getting a bargain they dont care the fact they are not. Look how many flippers on ebay are watching another flippers highly over inflated priced items! if they get a sale the other flippers follow suit in hope of snagging the next unexpended. These flipper watchers are easy to spot by also watching that item in most cases to "re listed"
