This whole "rich people should pay more, because they can" mantra that many have is mindless. If you work hard and educate yourself to become a valuable asset/commodity then you deserve to have more money and toys. Yet in reality many toys are still out of reach because the government decides that high earning individuals in the middle and upper middle class should subsidize the lives of the lazy, the ill, and the breeders, yet major industry gets a helping hand with taxes . Thee tax system is a failure as it stands is unjust for many and beneficial to most multinational corporations.
Spoken like a true right winger. lol Tax the crap out of the rich, and put the money to GOOD uses. They will still have plenty of money & toys, and we just might be able to have proper education & healthcare for everyone. You make it sound like people that don't have much money don't work hard. Here in the USA...we have 85 percent of men working more than 40 hours a week and 65 percent of women working more than 40 hours a week. The middle class is getting killed. This won't change your mind, but it's obvious you are voting for Jeb Bush... His quote "people need to work longer hours". Give me a fkn break. :lol:
I'd like to see the evidence for this. I put it down to having freedom and a free market mostly. Something that's being eroded more and more. Without a functioning market economy you can't even have a social safety net. Just ask the communist countries. Hmmm, it's funny how in the free market stuff generally becomes less expensive to provide. When you have competition there is a drive to reduce costs, yet government services seem to get constantly worse and more expensive. I wonder why that is...
The political right and left are basically the same. The only question is, who gets exploited. The real spectrum is totalitarianism to freedom. The right and the left are both more fond of the former even though some on the right put out a lot of rhetoric about the latter.
Is anyone else getting the feeling that these economic policies and potential reforms are set up in precisely the right way to ensure maximum bickering between the left - right, capitalist - socialist, rich - poor etc? Seems like the aim is keep everybody arguing amongst themselves so that they don't realise that we're all getting turtled, all the time. If we could ever stop falling into the trap of these dualistic arguments we might actually have a chance at properly improving things.
Fairness, there's a concept open to eternal debate - especially if you want to ignore that the only fair way to treat everyone is to treat them equally.
With grave fear of putting my head above the SS parapet here is my 0.023C worth. GST in itself is a fair tax. It is a consumption tax so if you want it then buy it and pay tax on it. Buy some crap trinket overseas? If it crosses our border, pay tax on it. Other countries have done GST well without the sky falling (NZ for example) and in doing so, they replaced hidden sales taxes and insidious taxes such as stamp duty. Clean, simple and job done. Not Australia though. Australia introduced GST and kept stamp duty then gave certain products exemptions to appease various lobbyists and unionists. Now everybody is getting in a tizz about the possibility of GST being raised. Why? Not because of the impact (perceived or real) of a tax increase but because we all know that although the pollies have been given a chance to fix something that is broken, I am sure that they will screw it up once again and the hole that they are digging will just get bigger and bigger. My tax cure? 15% GST is fine by me but simplify (and lower) personal tax bands, get rid of stamp duty and make GST payable across the board (with the exception of PPOR property). If they need more money why not charge people using the public health system for injuries incurred doing illegal activities or self-inflicted injuries private health care rates. Ask any Gold Coast (I am sure it will be no different in many other parts of the country) nurse how many of their hospital beds are taken up due to offshore plastic surgery gone wrong, drug overdoses or acts of drunken violence. And we wonder why there is a health funding crisis? Cutting up Bronwyn Bishop's credit card would probably go a decent way to stopping the debt spiral while we are on the job.
first time I ever said this to a Kiwi.... You sir have my vote. BTW, my missus is a Gold Coast Emergency Nurse, and you are spot-on.
Universal equal treatment is a good starting point. It still leaves the weakest among us at the charity of those most capable though, and this creates a dynamic where favorable treatment would develop. Charity is not always benevolent, and there would be the potential of exploitative treatment by someone capable over someone in need. Given the age of infinitely inflatable fiat, there should be no problem with basic living wage in a universal welfare state, and abolish all taxation. All citizens to be credited a set modest sum weekly, with the cost of governance also capped to regular set payments. This constant of liquid capital would keep the economy bubbling along without overheating, eliminating boom/bust cycles based on the manipulation of speculative markets and allowing true supply and demand principles play out in a market free of governmental interference. Those with skill or initiative could still prosper from their labours, and those with capital could still fund innovation with a view to profit. Only those who currently prosper idly as a result of controlling government policy through control of the monetary system would be worse off. Those currently idle with an inability or unwillingness to be productive will at least be capable of securing the basic necessities, and not have to resort to criminal enterprise. No doubt some still will, but they can be dealt with via a form of indentured servitude befitting of their transgressions. Forget the running national deficits. Once you reach the silly numbers they are irrelevant unless being used as an excuse to fleece the citizenry through taxes or the transfer of unimproved common resources into private hands. Operate within a fixed annual budgetary framework. It is hypocritical for the government to impose that on individual public service departments but fail to adhere to the same constraints. Special projects can be funded through donation, making revenue raising voluntary, with a financial democratic mandate. Why don't we use fiat to free mankind instead of enslaving it?
@KiwiGreg, I think the NZ parliament and NZers in general realised a long time ago the need to swallow a bitter pill. Or maybe it was forced on them. This has resulted in an economy that is moving more quickly ahead and has a more stable political situation than that of its cousin across the ditch. Your PM is approaching his 7th full year of office, compare that to our situation. We've had 3 1/2 prime ministers (taking into account Rudd's return of serve et tu, brute? style). I've read the mining boom in Oz basically helped our pollies kick the can down the road. But I'd also offer that having a population of only 4 1/2million in a nation (excluding sheep ) is an advantage when it comes to functioning on a more effective level. Well, our pollies have bloodied toes and the cans are rusted and full of jagged edges.
I don't think any evidence exists that supports the effectiveness of a State operated safety net. When one is absent there is no State system to compare it to, when one exists there is a monopoly, ie there is no alternative (control group) operating. All you can do is present a logically arrived at conclusion based upon a premise. Something which I think the proponents of a "social safety net that's made us peaceful and prosperous" are actually incapable of providing. When I see such phrases, I read it to mean "keep the poor from bashing down my door". It's insurance, protection money if you like, just like paying the Mafia or Yakuza. If we really wanted to help the unemployed, the mentally retarded, the physically incapacitated then we would remove restrictive legislative practices such as minimum wages, payroll tax and licensing requirements. Working without being taxed would be another step forward. Free money in return for labour!! Think about it. I'd be more than happy to sponsor the mother and father of a refugee family by way of in gratis payment for employment once all the details are worked out if that would help. I can tell you now, if it was to advantage both parties it would be a far more appropriate solution than the current, ie turn boats away or let them access welfare for years. It's in line with this thread http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-66030-capitalism-is-good.html.
its the ultimate irony when you see 8 leaders at a largess retreat talking how they're gonna tax us all more because they spend to much. get rid of the states and give local councils the funds, there's trillions to save just in doing that over the forward estimates
Wrong country my friend Here in NZ i (and my household) voted National. I know that a lot of poor people work hard , I USED TO BE ONE OF THEM> I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I cleaned shitty toilets at pubs and the vomit as well for about $9.50 an hour. I got sick of the crappy money and went and found my OWN pubs to clean and started hiring people to help me and was then making $50+ an hour. Sold that and started lawn business. Built up clients over years and when i had 150 odd sold that . Now i get to stay at home while my partner works (in pharmaceuticals) and we pay a full 1/3 THIRD of our earnings to support the likes of my old friends (when i was a teen) that still get the dole and get pissed and stoned all day. So what makes me somehow different to all those other hard workers that are still poor? We all have the same opportunities, don't we?
Shit , wouldn't that be nice Certainly not the TOP 1 %. We work hard though and from my experience if you work hard then the rewards will come. It takes time and does not just happen overnight (for the majority). But when i see or hear people whinge about the fact i have a nice car and home and i do not appear to work overly hard it PISSES ME OFF. They were not there years ago when i was getting covered in vomit and faeces and working 17 hour days to get a head. They were not there when i was cutting the lawns in 25+ degrees and getting burnt to the point even a cold bath at night was painful. SO if all these "other people that work hard" are not getting ahead then i ask you JPM , WHY? Could it be that real hard work and their idea and YOUR idea of hard work are different to what REAL HARD WORK really is? Because if these others are working as hard as you claim they would be getting ahead in life.
I think it's pretty funny that you assume that hard work is EQUIVALENT to lots of money. That's simply not the case. I'm happy that you've "gotten ahead from hard work". It's commendable. But every person has their own situation...and there are TONS of people who bust their ass working hard & NOT getting ahead. (Medical reasons, family reasons, etc etc) Sometimes life just poops on you - whether you are working hard or not.
