Silver Collecting and Hobby Taxation

Discussion in 'Silver' started by ekmchan, Dec 26, 2014.

  1. ekmchan

    ekmchan Member

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    A question to the members here about potential money made from future silver sales - has anyone successfully argued that even buying a huge amount of silver coins (non proof grade or slabbed) and sold them successfully as a 'hobby' rather than treated it as income for tax purposes. I'm talking about a potential turnover more than 75k in 1 year (of course not every year).
     
  2. Pirocco

    Pirocco Well-Known Member

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    I'm gonna report it as income, and also show them the bills that I purchased them with.
    Then they can measure my losses and give me a fat tax return. Just as a hobby. :)
    I rather name my coins savings, and savings aren't income, and swapping them to fiat or whatever other kind of savings, doesnt make it income eather.
    Income should be based on labor, and I didnt do anything to my coins, even not a hug like some apparently do.
     
  3. Fat Freddy

    Fat Freddy New Member

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    A number of things are involved, this situation can get complicated and different taxing authorities handle it in different ways. You need to get all the available information from whatever taxation agencies have jurisdiction over wherever you live. Without even knowing where you live and what government(s) you pay taxes to, nobody here can give you any advice that's sound enough for you to base your tax return filing strategy on. Whether you consider what you're doing to be a hobby, a business, an income source or anything else is meaningless. The tax laws and regulations that you're subject to mean everything and if you have $75K worth of (what may be) taxable income at stake, you'd probably be well-advised to get professional advice.

    One thing does however count a lot... If you sell PM's for cash and without providing any ID or having the transaction documented with a receipt provided, you just got a tax-free ride on whatever money you received in that transaction.
     
  4. ekmchan

    ekmchan Member

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    This is for Australia. Yes, I'm aware one could possibly go tax free through a cash economy.
     
  5. The Crow

    The Crow Member Silver Stacker

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    I think you'll find that not even hobbies are exempt from capital gains tax and $75k will be over the threshold for exemption.
    You need to do a little CGT research - it was only just coming in when I was last involved and was a leading reason I quit accounting ....
     
  6. ekmchan

    ekmchan Member

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    I see.. so 50% discount on Capitals gains after 12 month of holding any PM investments. Otherwise cash economy - though unless your desperate for food/fiat I still see PM's as a real store of wealth.
     
  7. Pirocco

    Pirocco Well-Known Member

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    That discount can be negative too.
    In my region company tax law also works negative, companies that make a loss get a tax "refund" (technically it's no refund, it was never funded in the first place haha).
    So if you buy silver at $20, sell it at $15, the gain is -$5, a tax of 20% would deliver $1, making the loss -$4.
    If you like tax refunds, buy high sell low, and forget the other side of the % to 100%. :p
     
  8. fishtaco

    fishtaco Active Member Silver Stacker

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    Pay your tax!

    Anyone who buys and sells a "Huge" amount of silver coins for 75 grand in one tax year is not a hobbiest but a trader.
     
  9. wrcmad

    wrcmad Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    No. :)
     
  10. boston

    boston Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Do a search. This topic has been discussed more times than I have had holidays in the last 10 years.
     
  11. Skyrocket

    Skyrocket Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    If someone sells over 75k of their PM stack in one year by selling 80 X $1,000 separate transactions (cash sales) how would the taxman ever know?
     
  12. ekmchan

    ekmchan Member

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    Depends on a variety of factors - is it cash in hand? If not and its done via bank transfer - it could be called structuring. Besides some nosy teller could report you for 'suspicious activity.' Also if the account is interest bearing the ATO will know also.
     
  13. Pirocco

    Pirocco Well-Known Member

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    In my region tax department can just ask banks for list transactions of a person, regardless amount, interest, whatever.
    Instead of 1 transaction of 1000 they then see 1000 transactions of 1.
    Even if the govt person didn't succeed elementary school, his spreadsheet or database processor will not show a difference to tax.
    Also in my region (hehe!) they forbid cash transactions above 3000 euro (since this year, in 2013 it was 5000 euro, and that was already down from 10000 euro (not sure of that from when precisely).
     
  14. wrcmad

    wrcmad Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    In my region, it's called a lucky streak on the GG's hehe.
     
  15. Pirocco

    Pirocco Well-Known Member

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    Anybody that buys and sells a "Huge" amount of dollars in one tax year is also not a hobbiest and is also a trader.
    Even 1 dollar is already trading.
    Why do stackers replace saved dollars with saved assets?
    To avoid tax.
    Inflation is also a tax.
    Pay your tax?
    Bah.
    There is no "my tax".
    All there is, is a forced payment, a forced product / service, at a forced price, from a monopolist, regardless of what you think about it.
    I also say to pay tax. Because giving the monopolist on thievery an excuse to pay more, is what the monopolist wants. If people would obey their laws, they would change / add to them in order to make people violate them again. Because a fine is an easier excuse than a general tax level.
    But I say just stack, dont do sell high > buy back in lows. Just try to buy at not bloated prices, keep the asset, and then sell a chunk now and then upon needs. Easier said than done, I know.
     
  16. Pirocco

    Pirocco Well-Known Member

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    A frontrun desk, even in its widest interpretation, is not a region hehe.
     
  17. spannermonkey

    spannermonkey Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    here there everywhere
    About 20 years ago I came so close on the Melbourne Cup
    $600 bet with a $400K pay out on a straight 6
    Got 5 of the 6 races & the last race our horse came in second , yet so close
    Haven't placed a bet since ;)
    So yes it is possible
     
  18. wrcmad

    wrcmad Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    And thankyou Pirocco, for your many $ contributions in 2014. They were all much appreciated. :lol:

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Pirocco

    Pirocco Well-Known Member

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    But that's not you, the wrinkles are on the face not on the lazy butt?
     
  20. Pirocco

    Pirocco Well-Known Member

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    And then you became a pm dealer?
     

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