No, this was your link to so-called evidence of manipulation. Not my opinion. I am not surprised you didn't recognise it. You want facts for a price plunge... more sellers than buyers at the price point. There.... simples. Now, that seems a whole lot of dust-up for nothing.
Yes it makes perfect sense to dump 2 million oz of gold on the market to sell it at the very worst price possible. Lets drive the price down as we sell this massive position in gold. We lose money all the way down - perfectly logical. Like Gordon Brown we sell the gold, we advertise the sale and we get the lowest price possible. This is how we all do business we all want to get the lowest price for our assets. This is not manipulation its price discovery hahaha. Next joke ?
It makes as much sense as every single sales thread on this forum - just on a different scale. There are a million plausible reasons for selling any asset at any time. I don't believe you are that nave. While such a blinkered view of the markets works for the permabull blame-game, it is far from realistic.
If there is no manipulation, why is there non. If you have the muscle why wouldn't you create/take an advantage.
Visitors 2, wrcmad 0 Man those spuds must hurt! So in point form: You say "No, this was your link to so-called evidence of manipulation." 1) Yes this is the link I provided to ask WHY a massive plunge occurred, and your answer, "more sellers than buyers at the price point." You say "Not my opinion." 2) Yes it becomes your opinion when you qualify it to be "rumoured" all be it to an aspect in your reply that I didn't ask!!! wrcmad let's just cut to the FACTS as you taught me last night WHY do you think such a massive amount of gold was dumped on the market at such a critical time? To assist you, I don't want to know about how it may have been conducted or what needs to occur to reach a price point Just answer that question fulla , as you say its that simple!
So the existence of manipulation is assumed to be present simply because an organisation may find it possible, but you jump into that market anyway, then cry foul? What is the general expectation? - that manipulation should exist because it can, or shouldn't exist, but is possible? Or do the permabulls simply want it to exist so they have someone to blame for price falls? Are they so hell-bent on being correct in their to-da-moon forecasts, that they are always searching for any "evidence" of it when price falls? Where is the line between a big trade and a manipulating trade? Just because you have muscle, does not make you a manipulator. Any trade is expected to move price - that is the law of supply and demand. The tell for me is that manipulation is only ever touted whenever price falls. Price rises, however, are explained away by price discovery, even though the same paper market is being examined.
Of course there is no manipulation this is an honest world and Goldman Sachs and other banks would never commit fraud. If they wanted to buy gold there is no way they would drive the market price down. Libor rigging and the London Whale that was just fat fingers - just honest mistakes not fraud. I mean no self respecting Muppet would think they would do anything illegal. The billions of $ in fines paid by JP Morgan - they were just misunderstandings. I promise you... Pull the other one mate ....
I KNOW there is manipulation in the stock market. And that is a market where actual shares of companies are traded. There will obviously be manipulation in the commodity futures markets which are much less transparent. Both UP and DOWN. Main problem with gold/silver is that 'spot price' is measured using the futures market rather than the physical market. The stock indexes are taken from the actual stock market, not from the futures market or some CFD market.
Fair enough, everyone is entitled to their point of view. This argument is like arguing about religion - people are already set in their beliefs. Truth be, I have no idea whether manipulation exists or not, and have an open mind. If it does exist, I don't even see what the big deal is? - makes bugger difference really, and I also don't see why people get so upset about it?
I think if you have a mortgage or have hire purchase agreements then over the last 10 years you have paid far more than you needed to as the Libor rate was rigged. That may upset people. If you work for a mining company or own shares in a miner you have a problem. The manipulation of the metal prices, PM copper, aluminium affect all those in that industry. A tin of coke is more expensive as it is made of aluminium. Countries that earn cash from mining have been screwed that may upset some people. If you want to open a business or get capital for a new venture that may now be problematic as the banks have destroyed that market. Only people who dont need money can get loans. That may upset people. Do I need to carry on ? This goes way beyond the few PM stackers who are taking paper losses. That is only the surface of the problem
I accept your list of maybe's as valid points. However, IMO they become quite trivial and have a minor effect on prices compared to govt. taxes and tariffs etc. It is surprising when you take a look at the arguments (although not yours specifically) against free trade. It seems free trade is frowned upon by a significant proportion of stackers...... except in the PM markets of course. http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-45118-global-minimum-wages.html http://forums.silverstackers.com/to...-80-per-cent-of-homes-in-parts-of-sydney.html http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-45760-free-trade-agreement-discuss.html
Ooops, missed your question Alfie. Let me catch up. I didn't qualify it either way... it was your exhibit of "evidence" as written by the author of the article.... who then proceeded to rant and whinge for another couple of pages all about something based on a rumour. OK. I'll answer your loaded question.... loaded because you stealthily slipped the phrase "critical time" into it. What was so critical about the time? Answer: Because someone didn't want it anymore. There.... simples.
Futures contracts getting sold is not actual gold getting sold, just a contract being sold Doesn't mean the seller has any gold they want to dump Just means the seller expects the price to go down or wants to cause it to go down The futures market being in control of commodity pricing is just stupid because it creates far more volatility than necessary that only benefits the futures players - or at least those big enough to control the volatility to suit them I'd much prefer a 5% rise or even a 5% fall over a year than this yoyo shit And don't get me started on high frequency trading - the whole lot should be outlawed There are only two options Join the volatility game and play the charts like wrcmad Or stick to fundamentals because they eventually assert themselves in the long run - but the long run can be very long
Can't speak for the commodities market but I KNOW, for a fact, that there are traders in the stock market big enough, and with enough friends, that they can push the price of stocks as big as bhp around.
An interesting take on this waterfall decline in gold was a comment issued on Friday by the Fed that the US was going to sell some gold to pay for the shortfall related to the debt ceiling. This was before the announcement that the republicans had folded. This coincided on the 2 Mill oz dump by Mr X. I heard an estimate that if the US had all 8000+ Tons of gold it was enough at current prices to pay all the US bills for 4 weeks. This is government helping big banks manipulate gold prices.
I totally understand the mechanics of the futures markets. However, the position is the same. And remember, there was someone on the other side of the 2 mil oz short trade. Their position was the same as buying 2 mil oz. Does this mean the buyer didn't have any gold they wanted to buy..... not necessarily.
So do we feel all a lot better now that we have established it's the big boys manipulation? Regardless of the cause and how much it upset us, all that matter is the price. In fact why even care about the cause? It's not like markets are rational. Sometimes I feel all this debate is so fruitless. Maybe the only thing it acheives - and its better than nothing I guess - is relieving some of the anxiety.
I don't think it is fruitless as we are made aware that this is not real. As always, manipulated markets will continue until suddenly they don't. The fact that prices do not reflect fundamentals and there is in reality no price discovery should encourage people to hold on and stay with their positions. Don't get scared out.
1) Go and have a look at the site again, look for the bold print you quoted from (which had precisely f#$@all to do with WHY there was a massive dump of paper onto the market, you know, the ONLY question I asked you to answer), look at your cut and paste job, notice that only the word rumoured is left in bold, you gave it qualification when you did that to emphasize your shitty irrelevant point fulla! 2)"Answer: Because someone didn't want it anymore." WOW!!!!! So would that be like I have 100 gold sovereigns, I don't want them anymore so I chuck em all on ebay and auction them at I dunno, 3.a.m in the morning on a mmm 30 second auction because I don't want them anymore? Wouldn't I be interested in at least getting true market value for them? Now I just know you are going to run for the exit again fulla and pull apart my example like 3 a.m in whose time, or you can't have 30 second auctions, or don't you know silly, the paper dump was longer than 30 seconds If I wanted to get proper market value on my sovereigns I would sell them in a busy time for the most exposure over an extended period of time to obtain the best price I could Another whack in ya spuds mate if you don't address this one and only question WHY would you dump that amount of paper onto the market in such a short amount of time?
