Silver Mining Costs Exposed: Cash Cost Fallacy

Discussion in 'Silver' started by House, Jul 11, 2013.

  1. House

    House Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Quite detailed but worth a read if you're into this kind of thing. Plus, there's pretty charts :D

    SD. Contains links to articles mentioned.
     
  2. worldbubble

    worldbubble Active Member

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    finally something of relevance
     
  3. Travelgall

    Travelgall New Member

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    Wow. Detailed and if accurate V Promising for a floor in Silver.
     
  4. BamaGuy

    BamaGuy New Member

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    I didn't read the whole long post but I have to ask if you revealed that most silver isn't mined by primary silver mines but as a by product of other type mines?
     
  5. Pirocco

    Pirocco Well-Known Member

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    I think this is the 3rd topic I saw this year specifically about this.
    There's a detail worth a closer look: "primary" miner. And not all of them, but the top 6.
    Primary silver mines account for 28% of total silver miners.
    http://www.silverinstitute.org/site/supply-demand/silver-production/
    So how representative for the silver market are these figures? A top 6 inside an 28% of a total.
    Just like in those older topics I saw, this seems to be ignored.
     
  6. col0016

    col0016 Active Member

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    I get that you're American but try and read the whole thing anyway, it's definitely worth it ;)
     
  7. BamaGuy

    BamaGuy New Member

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    Because it makes no sense to discuss cash costs if you exclude over 70% of the mines..

    Cash costs to mine silver in my yard would be enormous.. The whole topic is a farce if you exclude by product mines.
     
  8. BamaGuy

    BamaGuy New Member

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    Now if this topic were titled

    Reasons not to invest in primary mines

    It prove a point..Primary mines can't mine long for less than spot price..

    Another great reason NOT to own a primary miner is dilution of shares... THEY WILL keep mining at a loss as long as there are suckers who will buy diluted shares.
     
  9. Pirocco

    Pirocco Well-Known Member

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    There is a whole set of such farces, being re-pasted dozens times, no matter where the price is driven to. Apparently, reality doesn't suffice to make people buy at any price, so let's create some articles about trading volume comparisons with a silver production, about total sums of loans regardless loan start/end dates, about shortages of coin type X and general shortage, about commercial hedgers / swap dealers quickly covering short positions alike a short position can continue to exist after the owner of the long position decided to end it, and some other stories.
    According to http://www.silverinstitute.org/site/supply-demand/silver-production/
    1. Cannington, Australia BHP Billiton plc. 32.23
    2. Fresnillo, Mexico Fresnillo plc. 26.38
    3. Dukat, Russia Polymetal International plc. 15.50
    4. Uchucchacua, Peru Compaia de Minas Buenaventura S.A.A. 11.26
    5. Pirquitas, Argentina Silver Standard Resources Inc. 8.62
    6. Palmarejo, Mexico Coeur d'Alene Mines Corp. 8.24
    On the right side are the 2012 million ounces produced.
    If I sum these up, I get a total of 102.23 Moz.
    According to http://www.silverinstitute.org/site/supply-demand/ the total silver production in 2012 was 1048.3 (this of course includes the 250 Moz of recycling, why would we ignore it, it's for sale, origin ground or origin waste doesnt really matter eh?).
    100 * 102.23 / 1048.3 = 9.752%
    So this story is about 10% of the silver production.
    And cash cost is near to $9 an ounce for this 10% part of production, as stated on the same TSI page. With the spot price of around $20, there is, even in the case of this in terms of production 10% silver producers part, still some $11 profit to be made on every ounce. Of course, the miners themselves only receive a part of this $11, not all. The rest goes to the chain between miner and stacker. Coin producers, dealers, transport, etc. How many of those 11 dollars end up in dealer hands? In my region of the world, the amount precious metal dealers ten or more-folded (as indicated by their websites company histories). They all show these stories that get repasted over and over again. Get what I mean? :)
     
  10. Fykus

    Fykus Member Silver Stacker

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    so can someone give a tl;dr of what the cost per ounce is?
     
  11. BamaGuy

    BamaGuy New Member

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    There's at least one bipartisan report that puts cash costs at $.8.88 per oz.. I dispute using cash costs instead of all in costs because it's accounting trickery akin to using gross revenue instead of net profit..

    My personal belief is that silver costs around $12 to mine.

    $12 coincidentally happens to be my buy back in price for silver based on the following theory..

    Rough math but the oil bubble burst in 2008 at around $145 bbl. silver bubble at $49. Oil sank into the $30's so that would put silver to hit $12-$13 if it were to follow the oil bubble
     
  12. Pirocco

    Pirocco Well-Known Member

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    There are two approaches to a 'bubble' phenomenon. One approach considers the fiatcurrencies side of the price equation as the 'bubble', the other approach considers some specific markets/products as the bubble. Historically, it's typical to see basic products (as oil is) as residing the leading edge of the general inflation trend. If oil gets more expensive due to increasing production costs, then it's not the oil market/product side that is the bubble, but the fiatcurrency side. If oil gets more expensive due to (eventual futures based) stockpiling from the money for nothing club, then it's the oil side that is the bubble.
    The crude oil futures market situation seems to confirm your statement:
    [​IMG]
    Look at how the [green] and ofc also the [red+blue] trendlines deviate away from the zero. It's now sitting at close to 300,000 contracts of 1000 barrels, which is one of the peaks of the multiyear trend.
    But about your correlation silver/oil, how did you come to it? Oil and precious metals move quite alot in opposite directions. Take for ex the last silver price downtrend, october 2012 to present day. Oil on the contrary, rose 23%. It's abit funny to everytime see much higher price expectations in late uptrends, and much lower price expectations in late downtrends. Yet, as proved everytime in hindsight, neither happened, and the money for nothing club sold at lower, or bought back in at higher, than 'expected'.
     
  13. BamaGuy

    BamaGuy New Member

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    I merely compared oil/silver because I experienced it.. .I see lots of similarities... The last $30-$40 of the oil gains happened in a few days just like the 80's silver bubble on speculation.Same as the 2011 silver bubble..

    Oil is needed daily,so the rise back up as quicker. I feel oil should be around $60- $80 at this time. I think there is $40 of speculation priced in.However I don't see this ever going away because the population has gotten used to it.
     
  14. BamaGuy

    BamaGuy New Member

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    I'm not short silver at this time nor do I plan a short position. I do have a (not firm) plan to buy silver at these levels. I have a certain $$ I plan to use.

    5% at $14
    10% at $13
    20% at $12.50
    40% at $12.00
    15% at $11.50
    10% at $11.00

    At this point i've completed my silver purchases. If it goes lower,I don't buy any more. If it doesn't go that low,then I just wait & or use that on another investment.

    We haven't seen capitulation yet.. I could go in at a higher price if I see that.
     
  15. pdkbffwleo

    pdkbffwleo New Member

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    And the population has very little choice to NOT use oil. All nations need Oil. They can't live without it. Silver, on the other hand, a bit different. Oil and Silver shouldnt' follow the same trends. Entirely unique commodities.

    If oil went to $400 a barrel by Monday, it would take years for other viable options to be available.
     
  16. BamaGuy

    BamaGuy New Member

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    Funny thing about oil...It holds us hostage but we also hold it (the price) hostage..

    The cartel has to maintain a fickle line of keeping oil low enough for economies to be able to buy it. Lots of OPEC countries ruined their own countries when oil dropped like a stone in 2008.

    I submit that for oil to go up at a rapid pace from here isn't sustainable long term. The world can't afford $200 oil.
     
  17. pdkbffwleo

    pdkbffwleo New Member

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    Correct. As I stated, those years for other viable options to be available is what holds us hostage. The world can't afford $200 oil, but the world certainly paid $150 for it a few years back. Meaning, we, collectively, will pay $400 for it, short term...
     
  18. BamaGuy

    BamaGuy New Member

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    If I remember correctly the $150 oil was 1 trader who did it just to make it go that high as a joke.. The over $140 price was at most for a day or so IIRC. The high gasoline prices directly took $20+ out of the economy here every week &I think we all saw the resulting SHTF
     
  19. pdkbffwleo

    pdkbffwleo New Member

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    If oil goes to $200 tomorrow, I'll still drive to work, as most American's.

    Just like when it hit $140's, same thing. We have very little choice.

    We need a system like Europe...rail...that make sense. This stupid "high speed rail" bull shit is a waste of time and money. Buses don't work, unless you're armed with a .357
     
  20. Pirocco

    Pirocco Well-Known Member

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    You moved here from longer trend similarities to short & speedy price movements.
    It's not because something happens in a matter of days, that it isn't 'durable'.
    High speed doesn't imply bubble.
    It's even expectable to see speedy price movements in an economy, if corrections have been blocked for a prolonged time, and the blocking then fails, causing those accumulated corrections to happen all together.
    A crisis is a market shift, a movement of resources from markets to government-sponsored/benefitted markets (cheap lending of savings and new money), and if it occurs it means that economical limits of the drained off market part were reached.

    Silvers current $19 (or $20 as of yesterday) is now about the same as the peak in 2008 ($21-22), oil is now $100 and was $140 at that peak in 2008.
    Oil, one of the biggest markets, most money involved, sits 40% lower and silver (not a small market anymore though still much smaller than oil) sits about the same.

    About population gotten used to higher oil prices, weird description, they have to pay it (at least the nongovt sponsored part), whether they like it or not. It's a quite essential product. It's not like that people have the option to stop consuming oil, while a silver stacker can decide to suspend silver buying and keep the fiat until the temporary buyers again dumped.

    So your comparison oil/silver, it's abit shaky, I'd say.
    Of course, if others are willing to sell at your lower prices, the lower prices will come.
    In current global economical state of affairs, and with the lessons silver buyers / sellers learnt in recent years, maybe some price stability or a much slower reasonable uptrend appears expectable to me. I learnt from my buying high mistakes, alot others too, and alot others also learnt from selling low mistakes. I'll target $18-19 spot silver for my next purchase. No reason to hurry, a worldwide operating central planning means a decades gradual detoriation of welfare, instead of a month/year fast correction. The end results are the same, though.
     

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